MUSED: LA 2 HOU
MUSED: LA 2 HOU
SON CUATRO | Cheech in Conversation with Judithe Hernández
In this episode of the "Son Cuatro: In Conversation" podcast, artist Judithe Hernández talks with art advocate Cheech Marin; Todd Wingate, Director of Exhibitions and Collections at Riverside Art Museum; Edward Hayes, Exhibitions Senior Manager, McNay Art Museum in San Antonio, Texas; Charlene Villaseñor Black, Professor of Art History and Chicana/o Studies at the University of California, Los Angeles; editor of Aztlán: A Journal of Chicano Studies, and founding editor-in-chief of Latin American and Latinx Visual Culture; and arts marketing specialist Melissa Richardson Banks of CauseConnect, the producer and moderator of this series who also manages Marin's notable Chicano art collection.
Check out more in-depth articles, stories, and photographs by Melissa Richardson Banks at www.melissarichardsonbanks.com. Learn more about CauseConnect at www.causeconnect.net.
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Welcome
SPEAKER_00:to Son Cuatro in Conversation. This series is presented by Riverside Art Museum, a.k.a. RAM, leading up to the opening of the Chich Marín Center for Chicano Art and Culture, a.k.a. The Chich. I'm Melissa Richardson-Banks. Today, there are four panelists in conversation with artist Judith Hernandez. Cheech Mudding, entertainer, filmmaker, comedian, collector, and art advocate. Todd Wingate, director of exhibitions and collections at Riverside Art Museum. Edward Hayes, exhibition senior manager at the McNay Art Museum in San Antonio, Texas. And by the way, he's also the curator of the exhibition, Judith Hernandez, A Dream is a Shadow of Something Real, which was on view at the Museum of Latin American Art, August 11th, 2018 through February 17th, 2019. We'll learn more about that later in today's discussion. Charlene Villaseñor-Black, she's a professor of art history in Chicano Studies at the University of California, Los Angeles. She's the editor of Aztlan, a journal of Chicano Studies, and the founding editor-in-chief of Latin American and Latinx Visual Culture at UC Press. Charlene, can you share background about Judith for our audience and for Teach and all of us here, and then guide a discussion about Judith and her work?
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. I'm delighted to do that. So Judith Hernandez began her career in the early early 1970s as a major figure of LA's Chicano arts movement, merging activism with her artistic practice. Originally gaining prominence as a muralist, she became the fifth and only female member of the art collective Los Four. Over the last five decades, she's developed a studio practice which centers around pastel on paper, fusing Western and indigenous iconography with Mexican and Chicana Chicano themes. Hernandez is included in many significant public and private collections, including the Museum of Modern Art, the Smithsonian American Art Museum, the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Art, the National Museum of Mexican Art, the Bank of America Collection, and now the Chichamarin Center for Chicano Art and Culture. Recent exhibitions include War Within, War Without, the Museum of Modern Art, now on display through November 2021, and Life Model, Charles White and His Students at LACMA, and that was in 2019. In 2016, 24 glass mosaic panels designed by Hernandez for the downtown Santa Monica Metro Station were installed. Commissioned by the LA County Transportation Authority, this suite of panels is known as LA Sonata. And if you haven't been there, I highly recommend it. It's at 4th and Colorado in Santa Monica. And I've been most recently writing on these mural mosaics, Chicana feminist tribute to the varied multicultural influences of the city of LA. So I've been working with, thinking about, and writing on Hernandez's work for several years now. I first met her after her return from living in Chicago here in LA, not too many years ago. And when I took over as the editor of Aslan, a journal of Chicano studies, which was in January of 2016, I discovered that she had been the first artist for the journal doing all of the early covers. And this led me to really realize in a profound way her importance in the Chicano movement as an artist, an activist, printmaker, muralist, and as a member of Los Four. In 2017, Her work was exhibited alongside that of Patsy Valdez in the Miller Cheats Gallery, and this is that One Path, Two Journeys show. And I was just awestruck by her just superb pastel works. These lush pastels focus on the human, often female, figure and draw us into their dreamscapes. They tempt us with their complex symbolism and archetypal imagery. Her handling of the nude human form is superb and creates universal resonances for her varied viewers. Her work dazzles us with its power, but it also forces us to think and to engage with it. And now before we turn it over to Cheech, I would like to turn to Curator Eddie Hayes to have him say a few words about this more recent show that was at MOLA featuring Judith's work.
SPEAKER_06:Thank you, Charlene. And thanks to the Cheech and the Riverside Art Museum for the opportunity here to participate in this discussion. I had the tremendous, tremendous honor of working with Judith and from about 2016, I think that's really when the project began through 2018 on Judith's solo exhibition at MOLA, the Museum of Latin American Art in Long Beach. The only museum in the country dedicated exclusively to modern and contemporary Latin American art. So just was so happy to make, you know, to see Judith make history there as the first Chicana artist. to have a solo presentation after 20 I think 22 years of the museum focusing exclusively on the work of Latin American artists and not you know having the opportunity to work yet with artists of Latino descent working in the U.S. which would exclude every Chicano artist on the planet at least in the U.S. and So that was a tremendous honor. And, you know, just more, I'd say more specifically about the project. I want to say that it was in 2016 when Judith, at least, was first on my radar as an artist that was, you know, that I was aware was living and working actively in Los Angeles. And the exhibition was, you know, really, we can talk about more of this later, and I'd love to hear from Judith on this, but I think it was something of a homecoming that was celebrated at that time, at that solo presentation. We had, I think, 21, 22 large pastels on view. We had some incredible sketchbook drawings from the late 70s, early 80s. We had some ephemera that helped tell a little bit of Judith's history, a little bit of her past, touching upon Judith documenting the LA walkouts when she was in high school. So those photographs, that record growing up in LA was kind of a key piece to the origin story of this incredible artist. But the exhibition, in terms of the homecoming aspect, I have to say was really about a recent body of work that was building up so much momentum since, again, about 2016, 2017. Judith, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there were probably four or five pastels that were, I think, in progress six months before the show opened. There was this wave of energy, of creativity, and we were able to open with five or six, I think, pastels that no one had ever seen before. And, you know, Charlene, I think as you so eloquently described Judith's work, I'm not going to try to sum it up the way you just did, but really, you know, I want to speak something, I want to say something, I want to address the title of the show because there is an element of Judith's work that although it's, you know, so rooted in social justice issues, it's so rooted in, you know, a U.S.-Mexican-American Chicana experience. At the same time, there's this, as you described, this universality to the work, which really opens it up. And the title of the show is A Dream is the Shadow of Something Real. And as someone who doesn't really remember their dreams, somehow I've In my career in museums, I've worked with surrealism and I've worked with so many artists that are just, that draw from that dream material. And I really feel that, Judith, the work that I saw at the time and that we were working with and showing was work that had this incredible shadow play going on. There was so much mystery and... I have to say, I don't want to say it was all veiled, but it definitely was like waking up after a really intense dream and just kind of telling somebody about it. And I felt like that is the first impression of the work that was on view then. And then, you know, through the programming, through the texts, through incredible scholars like Charlene, through collector's accounts, and through the experience of just seeing the work, all of these other narratives unfold. So, and I hope we can get into some of those in this conversation, but I guess that's me characterizing what this exhibition was, at least in my post 2020 memory, which anything before 2020 is super hazy. So Judith, how was your, I want to hear from you. I mean, how do you recall that exhibition now?
SPEAKER_03:You were wonderful to work with, number one. You know, I saw how young you looked when you walked in. I thought, my God, this person's from high school. But you were so smart. We had so many things in common after we met. We talked about a mutual Chicago experience and that, you know, you're originally from Texas. My mother's from Texas. Um, so, you know, I, I felt, you know, very, um, you know, a kindred kind of spirit. And, and I, I, um, I also appreciate it. And I think, you know, I think women, women artists can talk to this, you know, they're, um, they're not often treated with the same level of respect and regard, you know, by institutions, uh, just the way, you know, the art of women has not been treated with respect and regard, you know, since forever. Um, And so, you know, meeting you and feeling that, you know, that you were, you had this, you know, you were really dedicated to, you know, organizing, you know, this look into, you know, my work and the origins of my career with such, you know, interest and regard for telling the truth and for being very respectful, and I really appreciated that. I thought you were terrific to work with. But one of the payoffs has been, I think, especially in the last, just as I was leaving Chicago, I am 73 years old now. I was 62 when I left Chicago. And about my 60s was the time when I was rekindling my vision for where I was going next as an artist. And I think that when you reach a certain age, hopefully you've reached a level of maturity that allows you to be more honestly introspective and more intensely curious, actually, about things that you didn't have time for when you were younger. And I think that the work that I've been doing since my return, starting in Chicago and my return to Los Angeles, has allowed me to think about my work in a more universal way. And it's been very gratifying to have women from around the world, you know, contact me through my website and say, you know, how much they relate to the work. As far away as India, a young Hindu woman wrote a poem about the Juwada series. And I was so moved. It was such a beautiful poem that I asked her permission to name a group of pieces in that series that were coming next. It just seems so right. So that connection was made, you know, internationally. not because she was Mexican, but because she was a woman. She saw the same issues, you know, for her, for the women in India that she knew that I was talking about for women at the borderline between Mexico and the United States. So clearly my head is, you know, I'm not 25 years old anymore. And so I think I'm trying to benefit from my experiences and my ongoing, never-ending search for You know, knowledge. I mean, I read politics. I read history. I read a lot of things other than art, you know, that just inform, you know, how I think about the things that are contemporary and how often those things, you know, reoccur only with a different set of people in a different time and different circumstances. So, yeah, all of that feeds what I do. And I think the show at MOLA was the first time the first look at that. And I really appreciated the review by Christopher Knight because he talked about those things. You know, he didn't, you know, he didn't, he talked about the way they look, but he rooted them in the canon of Western art as well as a contemporary woman of color, you know, living in the 21st century of the United States talking about issues that were very particular to, So yeah, I thank you for starting me off that way with the wonderful show you put together. Oh
SPEAKER_06:my goodness, Judith. It was incredible. And it's definitely one of the highlights of my career. But this is about you. And there's something about your work that, you know, in that LA Times review by Christopher Knight, which was very thoughtful. And Christopher Knight, the chief critic of the LA Times is, He's very bright, is someone who is well-rounded in all the arts, you know, so he tapped into some literary references that are in the titles of your work. A Dream is the Shadow of Something Real is a quote from a film and it has roots in poetry as well. So I think, you know, something about the work that was on the walls. And it's also behind you, Judith, and also behind Charlene's, in Charlene's background. For those of you maybe watching or listening, at least imagining what we're talking about, there is an incredible amount of symbolism. The imagery is so layered that, you know, once you think you have a hold of it, you know, sometimes I think, okay, I've got this U.S.-Mexico story narrative image I think I understand that this work is about the women of Juarez. Once I think I have the story down, then you tell me the story about a young Indian girl who's connecting to this narrative and it just becomes, it just opens up. And so there's this incredible, your work is so worldly. I think that's the only way I can put it. And it's these discussions that, you know, I think it's what's on your bookshelf, Judith. You know, that was a source of inspiration for, I mean, for me to go and what's the, what are we going to title this section? What's this about? What's that about? Your intellectual curiosity is just, I see how it fuels the work and how it comes out in different ways.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you know, I always tell the young artists, it's funny how, you know, when I've done, you know, several talks in the last, you know, 10 years and one of them is generally from, you know, an audience of young artists who say, well, do you really need to go to art school? Do you really need to have a college education? And, you know, I'm amazed by the question because, you know, how are you, what, where is your content coming from if you don't know anything? And my mother was one of those amazing women who my brother and I, for the moment, you know, we could read, you know, dragged us to museums, to libraries, to, you know, the whole idea that, you know, the. I mean, she even would say this to us. It was remarkable. She said, you know, Shakespeare and Mozart and people like that, they belong to you, too. Their music, their books, their stories are in the library. You should read and you should understand why these people are important, what they said, how they said it. I think most of the artists I know who I personally respect a great deal and respect their work is because their creative inspiration and worldview is fueled by all the things they know. Things from the past, things from the present, but it's a constant search to learn something for me, at least every day, that I didn't know before. I mean, I'm crazy enough that I'll just open the dictionary at some point and look at the words and think, oh, I don't know this word. What is this word? I mean, I think you have to hold on to that kind of curiosity. It's almost childlike, but it serves a purpose for somebody who's creative. Carlos Almaraz had that kind of childlike curiosity that never ended. And I think when you lose that, when you lose sight of the fact that you constantly have to feed your creative mind, that's when the work gets old, it gets stale, it gets repetitive. And I try not to do that. Thank you,
SPEAKER_06:Judith. I'm going to volley here to Keith. I have a question. I think I shared a little bit about how Judith came on my radar as a curator working on a very special project. But Keith, how did Judith come on through your radar and what drew you to her work?
SPEAKER_04:You know, I was unfamiliar with Judith's work for the longest time until Todd and I, when they went down to the Miller Sheets Museum, I think it was there on the fairgrounds of LA and Pomona, and saw the dual show between Judith and Patsy Valdez. And I was thrilled to see that much work as my first introduction to Judith because there was a lot of great work in there and I could How come I didn't know so much about this artist that has been around for a long time? So I think our paths just didn't cross or slightly crossed or sometime during that time I was always either on the road or doing something else. But But I was thrilled to see that work, and I immediately took of what great work it was. My question for you, and it's a particularly Chicano art question, is why the use of pastel? I know that many, many Chicano artists delve deeply into pastel. All the people in Los Four and many others, Leo Limon and Patsy Valdez, a lot of artists. Right. why have you chosen pastel to be your main avenue of expression?
SPEAKER_03:Thank you for that question. It's because people always, I mean, they always describe artists as painters, don't they? Because that is the kind of traditional historic, you know, medium of most artists is paint. Personally, I hate paint. You got to clean your hands all the time. It's just, it's a, you got to mix it. You got to save it. It goes bad. You open it and it's turned to mush. I hate process. And since the time I was a child, I was attracted not so much to, oh gosh, how can I put this? The intriguing thing about line is to learn about how to describe a three-dimensional form only using a line. I think Degas, there's a wonderful quote about him that line describes form. That's its job. When I started Otis, I met Charles White. who recognized in me that he and I were the same thing. We were drawers. Unfortunately, in English, there is no good... That's not a very romantic word, right? Drawer. Sounds like a drawer, right? You put your chonies in. That's what we do. We draw. We're fine artists who happen to use a drawing medium. Pastel is the only drawing medium that gives you brilliant color to use. And so I can continue to draw... and still produce what they call paintings. And people always ask me this question, well, why are pastel paintings when there are no paint in pastel? I said, well, you know, the easy answer is a surface that is entirely covered with a medium is a painting. When you use the background, the substrate, you know, the paper that's an important part of the finished product, then you have a drawing. And I rarely do those anymore. I spent a lot of time when I was younger doing work like that. And now the surfaces of everything I do are completely covered with pastel, and so they're pastel paintings. But it just appeals to me. I mean, it's a beautiful way to work. And it's when you get down to it, what makes the pastel, that chubby little chunk of beautiful color that I use, is that it is pure pigment. Unfortunately, I'm in the position now of being able to buy the amazing kinds of product that's made in Europe and other places where they make it by hand. And it is the basis of all other color. Paint comes from that. My little sticks of pastel are pure, natural color with very little filler. It's like having, you know, it's like being mother nature and having the ability to work with, you know, these amazing colors that are absolutely pure and reflect light in a pure way. The only downside, the only downside if you're someone who collects pastel is light is extremely important. It's like stained glass. If you're looking, if it's a daytime, you're standing outside the church, you know, the windows are nothing. But if you go inside and the light is coming through them, then you get this spectacular show of color and form. And pastel really relies on light in order to really shine. I don't know. It's not for everybody. It's very difficult to work with and get it to do what you want, but... I personally love it.
SPEAKER_04:One of the last things I know about pastel is that the pastel chalk, the stick, is a very imprecise instrument and you do very precise work with it, you know, and how do you balance those two almost opposite intentions?
SPEAKER_03:It comes in different forms, fortunately now, you know, back in the day when artists, you know, like Degas had to, you know, make their own. Yeah, you wound up with little lumps. It was the reason they couldn't do, it was handled in paint more than it was handled in as a dry medium. Fortunately for me, with the technology that has improved how you deliver pastel itself, there are pencils, there are forms that are sticks that are very small and fine. And there are ways of... One of the great things Charles White taught me was that you don't necessarily need the... a brush in order to apply, you know, a color to a, to a canvas or to a piece of paper. We used to go out to the park to cross the street to MacArthur park with no tools, just paper. And he would say, okay, find something to draw with. So, you know, we're running around looking for twigs and, you know, anything we could find that could make a line and mud. And, but, but it was such an important lesson because you don't need you know, those things necessarily. If you look at a lot of his work, a lot of the line and the interesting texture he produced had nothing to do with brushes and, you know, tools, artist tools that are made for that purpose. And it gives you a totally different look. So you have to be inventive.
SPEAKER_04:Have you ever painted with paint?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, sure. Sure. I paint occasionally. I mean, I know how to sling paint. You know, I went to art school. I just don't like it.
SPEAKER_04:You don't have to. You're an artist.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it's the seven story mural that's downtown now. It had a certain scale in order to photograph it. So I did this huge painting for that. And it was fun. But, you know, I can live without it.
SPEAKER_04:Let me ask you about the days, early days of Los Four, because I was just recently aware that you were a fifth member of that group. How did that come to be? And how did your associations with those four guys come to be. And they let you in their club. I
SPEAKER_03:know, I know. It's that, you know, we were talking earlier about being, you know, kind of, you know, put on a historical path that you had no idea was historical until you're old and you're fortunate enough to be old as, you know, as I am. I went to Otis in 1969. And by 1970, they threw me out.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:because I wasn't going to class enough. You know, there was a lot of, you know, things in the movimiento that were going on and I was involved in that. And my parents were horrified that I got kicked out of school. So it put me back a year. I went back, you know, finished my BFA. And then when I started graduate school, and this is pure, you know, I guess, you know, the planets aligned. One of my classmates who had not come, who had not been an undergraduate, happened to be Carlos Almaraz. He started graduate school the same year I did. And Otis was so tiny in those days. There were only five Chicanos. Well, not even Chicanos, five Latinos. And only two of us had a political conscience. The other guys were, I don't know, from Latin America or something. So we became fast friends. And he's the one who would drag me to, you know, Marxist meetings, you know, Marxist meetings. dialogues with other people and to, you know, all these kinds of crazy events. And I'm sorry, what was the question?
SPEAKER_04:How did you get involved with LOS4 and how did they invite you into the group? Or did you force away?
SPEAKER_03:You know, we knew each other for about a year or so. By 1974, we're getting to graduate. And that same year, he said, you know, in order to really make LOS4 possible, or have less for, reflect the consciousness of, you know, this Marxist ideal that he saw artists having in a society. They needed a woman. Or he thought, the other ones, the other fellows did not think so. But he thought so because Oscar had a woman. And so, yeah, I thought, OK, you know, I'll buy this only because I like you guys. I like your work and I like to show it.
SPEAKER_04:What did you do as a member of Los Five now?
SPEAKER_03:Well, you know, we never changed the name. People always say, well, why were there five of you when there were? Why was it Los Four when there were five of you? Because they had already had that show at Irvine, which which resulted in the show at LACMA. So and because we were a Marxist group, they felt that the name already had brand value and it was symbolic. There could be 40 artists that were members of Los Four. And it never got to be more than five. But, you know, that's why they never changed the name. And in fact, after, you know, after a few years, Gilbert moved to Fresno because he got a teaching job in Fresno. And Beto stopped working. And so Los Four really became Los Three. And then, you know, by 1989, Carlos was gone. And that was the end of it. plus four.
SPEAKER_04:The ironic thing, I think, is that Beto's going to be the one that outlives them
SPEAKER_03:all. I think you're absolutely right.
SPEAKER_04:I just don't know how is that physically possible, but...
SPEAKER_03:He's been through a lot, and he's, yeah,
SPEAKER_04:he's... Yeah, I just met him not too long ago, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Really?
SPEAKER_04:Because he had been isolated for so long that nobody had seen him for a long time. But so, what activities did you guys embark upon as now Firehouse 5 plus 1? Oh,
SPEAKER_03:you know, We had, gosh, we had so many exhibitions following the show at LACMA. We immediately were booked into a show at the Oakland Museum. We had one in the Long Beach Museum. We were doing murals. We were doing... We were working with Teatro Campesino. Carlos and I would travel up north at least once a month to go work with Cesar Chavez and do murals and banners and whatnot up there. It was the ride of my life, I have to tell you. Because half the time on the roads, we'd leave LA at night and we'd stop at Buttonwillow. You know that bus stop or truck stop just before you go either up 99 or 101? Yeah. And we'd have breakfast and then we'd sing all these kind of Broadway songs, everything we could think of to keep ourselves awake before we got to Northern California. We also tried to organize artists. Carlos had made a connection with Rene Yanez, the wonderful late Rene Yanez in San Francisco and the RCAF and organized artists across the state, which never really happened, but we had some great parties. And everybody got to know each other and the people in San Diego, we'd go see them. It was just 10 years rolled by so quickly. It was just so much fun. We did a lot of art, had a lot of experiences together.
SPEAKER_04:They do roll by quickly. So why do you think, being a woman, why women are not courted actively to do shows or excluded from doing shows? I was married to a painter before, and that was her main complaint all the time, that she was not given the same opportunities. Why do you think that was an institutional attitude at the time? Or what was the cause of that, do you think?
SPEAKER_03:It's been an institutional attitude since, you know, since Adam and Eve. Because, well, especially in this country, let's just talk about this country. Have you read the Arlene Davila book, Latin X Art? Actually, she's an anthropologist at NYU. who has a great interest in art. And she did an incredible job of investigating why it is that Latinx, and when we're talking about Latinx, we're talking about Latinos born in the United States. America born Latino art never winds up in museums, okay? Generally speaking, that has been the case. And she confirmed something I have thought for decades. And that is that in the United States, in the mainstream institutions of America. And it's not even so much them. It's the guys who control the value of art, the Sotheby's, the big auction houses and the major museums who are the tastemakers for the rest of the country. And they decided that the work of people of color of the Americas didn't rise to the level of fine art. They also didn't want to have anything elipse the importance of the Western canon, which is the standard for art across the United States, as if that were the only art ever produced on the planet. It is ruled by Western art and the accomplishments of Europe. So we didn't fit that paradigm. There's a great movie that's called The Price of Everything You Ought to See. It's a documentary about an artist who's actually white. He stayed out of the New York scene for decades before he came back. because his work, it wasn't, you know, it didn't fit, you know, some sort of standard either. But anyway, with regard to us, that's why when you look at museums that have a Latin American collection, they are mostly the artists of Latin America. I'm talking about South America. Those artists are generally speaking, European descendants of white Europeans who do art that is not what, what, what they call here disparagingly, identity art. That's one of the things that was, the critic from the, art critic from the Washington Post said in an interview following, in his review following the opening of that big show at the Smithsonian, the Latino art exhibition, no, no, American art, the Latino presence in American art, I forget the title. He called it, you know, what is, he called the term Latino art meaningless. And boy, did that blow up all over Facebook and the Twittersphere because they, on the one hand, we've been criticized by doing identity art and having identity shows where it's labeled, you know, black art and it's labeled Chicano art and yet they don't show us. So, excuse me? So what do you care? I mean, why do you care what we call ourselves? And then when we do have a show in a major museum, in a mainstream museum, they don't want it to be categorized by its ethnicity. I said, well, you know, after 50 years of being forced to do that, you know, why are you surprised?
SPEAKER_04:The reason that I wear a T-shirt that says Chicano art is American art. Thank you. But that is, you know, it is insisting on being part of the canon of American art, which we are. And as far as I'm concerned, and my studies, and I've studied this quite extensively, I'm sure everybody listening to it has. There's an argument to be made that because of its longevity, because of its specificity, and because it encompasses many states from coast to coast for a long period of time and is highly influential, that the Chicano School of Art is perhaps the most important school of art in America ever. And it is still going.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, I would agree with you.
SPEAKER_04:And so part of the program now going forward is to demonstrate that. My mantra had always been that you cannot love or hate Chicano art unless you see
SPEAKER_03:it. That's an argument that is so easy to cure, isn't it? Well, why don't you just show it and see how your audience reacts?
SPEAKER_04:When Chicano Business came through, it was the most well-attended show in over 25 years at the Smithsonian. And they get everything. That's
SPEAKER_03:right. Patsy and I broke records. We had 85,000 people come through our show.
SPEAKER_04:It was a good show. There's no way you're not going to go see that if you get a chance.
SPEAKER_03:After years, after decades of, you know, I mean, every time I went to New York, you know, from the early 80s, you know, until just a few years ago, it was this nonstop diet of non-objective, you know, conceptual art. You know, if I saw another white room With a white pile of sand, I was going to throw up. I mean, it was just the most boring stuff. It's an intellectual navel-gazing for the most part. I'm sorry, guys, but a lot of conceptual, a lot of objective art, it's so elitist. It doesn't invite your normal human being to come in and find something they can emotionally as well as intellectually be challenged by. It's also about class because it doesn't exclude people because it is... by and large, narrative and content driven, you know, whether it's Frank's work, my work, you know, whoever, Abel Alejandro, I mean, I can think of all these contemporary artists who work now. It's not something that is, you know, that you need to pretend that you understand, you know, anyone can look at these things and derive some meaning, you know, if they want to spend the time. And I You know, God bless David Hockney. He said this decade, you know, at least 20 years ago on some interview with 60 Minutes, how tired he was of seeing, you know, art that, you know, he wanted to see real art. He was tired of all this conceptual stuff. He wanted to see people. He wanted to see, you know, the kind of work he does where you have these mysteries that include, you know, the human form that have a story that have, you know, something that requires your, you know, your intellectual and emotional presence, you know, to become involved with it. And I, yeah, I totally believe in that. And I totally believe in that we are an American form of art that has not been celebrated enough. There's so many talented young people coming along. I
SPEAKER_04:think it's bad in painting, try it in movies, but it's changing now by force of will. It is a matter of persistence and it's a matter of being able to have the work once you're able to show it. And that's, you know, I rest fully confident in both of those things. Your work is wonderful. And we're just starting now to collect a few pieces so they will be installed in the Canada of Chicano art, you know, but I'm not a, I'm not a zillionaire that, you know, I sent over two tons of that art, you know, I have to be working. I'm a working actor. So when I do work, I collect, but, but I know what I'm looking for, you know, very, you Early in this process, I knew what I was looking for, and it was Chicano art because I could identify it real easily, not only because of where I was from, but it looked like it was talking about something. So much art talks about nothing. We're just in our first museum. We'll have many more as we go forward. Maybe one exclusively devoted to Chicana women. That's redundant. I don't really kind of... between men and women. I just look at the art, you know, and that tells me if I should like it or not. Chicanos are open to, at least at this point, I mean, there was a lot of male dominance in the early Chicano days. I know a lot of the women...
SPEAKER_03:How about a lot?
SPEAKER_04:Okay, I get your point. Get me a beer.
SPEAKER_03:Bless their souls. That was one of the things, you know, black women and Latinas, the fact that, you know, we were bucking the American white establishment, but we also had to deal with machismo. You know, it was a double whammy on our part. So, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:That's why you guys are stronger. You got to put more on your back here.
SPEAKER_03:We live longer. It's the only break they've given us.
SPEAKER_04:That's true. Your show at
SPEAKER_03:Oh, at MoMA, the Museum of Modern Art in New York. It's a group show. It's called War Within, War Without. It's up until the fall.
SPEAKER_04:Are there certain museums you go to every time you're in that city?
SPEAKER_03:You know, me and museums have a funny relationship because, you know, I have, you know, some, you know, I had some problems with, you know, them not, you know, showing the work of people of color. But now I go with a more open mind, not just because, you know, I've happened, you know, to... to be lucky enough to have some work acquired by, you know, some very fine institutions, but I see a change and I want to chart that change. And I think that, you know, when one of the things that I think that I, you know, I hope I have, I have done because I don't like to talk about myself really, but because of the position I'm in a few years ago during the, the Charles White, the run-up to the Charles White exhibition that toured, It was in MoMA. It was at the Art Institute in Chicago, and then it came to LACMA. I was contacted by a young curator at MoMA who knew I was a student, wanted to come and do some interviews. We got to know each other pretty well, talked about a lot of things. And one day, she was in my studio having lunch with another curator of a very prestigious museum. I couldn't believe they were both sitting here. And at my age... And what have I got to lose by asking the tough questions? What are they going to do, not show me?
SPEAKER_04:They've already proven they can do that.
SPEAKER_03:Really? So I said to them, why is it that... I said, you're both young. You come to Los Angeles. You see the amazing vibration in the city, you know, just... compounding with art, you know, of people of color, the amazing images, the color, the energy. Why don't you ever show this in your museums? And they both, you know, looked at their, you know, at their tables, you know, at the plates embarrassed. They said, you know what? It's not us. We go back and when we go to acquisition meetings, you know, in our department and we talk about what we see, we really should send more people out. We have to come out and look at make studio visits, you know, find some work, you know, to acquire. This was prior to being embarrassed about not being diverse. And I said, and so what happens? Well, it goes to the next level. You know, those recommendations. People who give megabus, the kind of folks who have a gallery named after them, they are paying for the brand value of the art. We get over that, then things will change.
SPEAKER_04:The world of museums, the gears grind exceedingly slow in that world. And so, I mean, you can be in a hurry, but it really goes to against the grain. But eventually, if you're steadfast to your beliefs, it will happen. But I have fun in the lead up to dealing with these directors. So you claim to be the Museum of American Art. Well, as far as I can see, you're the Museum of some American art. And they get it. They don't want to get it, but they get it. But that's where we are right now. The push is gradually coming.
SPEAKER_03:A hundred years from now, hopefully it will be different.
SPEAKER_04:Well, we'll still be young by then. you know. I think Charlene has a question.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I'm just thinking about the structural barriers to exhibiting Chicana women artists or people of color artists. And the fact that there are so few museum directors of color, so few curators, it's starting to change. More graduate students are coming through the pipeline. But it's a very serious, I think, impediment. And I actually believe you have to try really hard to not see Chicana women artists. Even back in the movement days, there, you know, You were there, Judy Baca. There were so many important women at that time. I'm happy to see barriers are starting to come down.
SPEAKER_03:There you go. From your mouth to God's ear.
SPEAKER_04:It is a constant and forward push. And, you know, that's what it is. And you just accept it for that and kind of smile in the face of it and keep on pushing. And it'll happen. It is happening right now as we speak. So don't get dissuaded or discouraged because it is happening as we speak.
SPEAKER_03:Well, you know, the whole political social pendulum is now finally swinging back. after 500 years, people who were conquered are going to be the people in charge, which is part of the problem. The brown will inherit the earth. It's a very hard thing, I think, for many European descendants in this country to deal with the idea about not being in charge anymore. And I think when that is finally accepted by maybe their children or grandchildren or great-grandchildren at some point are the minority in this country, then things will be a little more comfortable for all of us when people accept what everyone is and include them all.
SPEAKER_04:We need cooperation between everybody if we're going to go forward as a human race. Because we're going to face a lot of opposition by nature as we go. But we will need each other and we need each other to get along. And we enjoy each other's spirit and things that are positive in each other's lives and that we can contribute to each other. Hopefully that will be the way the Cheech Museum in Riverside will be seen. But you've contributed greatly to this. by the continuing creation of your work. I mean, you look behind you and it's still going. I'm
SPEAKER_03:an addict. People are addicted to many things. Art has never paid for me. Most of my life, I have paid for the privilege of making art. It's only the last couple of years that my luck has changed a little bit and now people are buying the work, but That's not the way I work. I work probably for the same reason that people go into other creative disciplines like music. I know your wife is a pianist and she plays beautifully.
SPEAKER_04:Try to make a living doing that.
SPEAKER_03:But you do it not because it's going to pay your rent or put food on your table. but because you can't stop yourself from doing it. It's the only thing that really gives you satisfaction. Yeah,
SPEAKER_04:you're doing great.
SPEAKER_06:Anybody else got another question? One thing has become apparent after all these years, Judith, is that you're a pioneer and you continue to break through new arenas, new collections, new museums. And You know, I think that's something that, you know, going back a little bit, you know, we were talking about Los Four and why that was so significant. Los Four was an all-male collective, well, in addition to Judith, but it was originally an all-male an all-male collective that broke into the mainstream with a major show at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art. Just for those listeners that are outside of LA, on the East Coast, or in between, that was a major moment for Chicano art, breaking into a mainstream stage for art. There were some secret break-ins, absolutely. Yes, and there will be future break-ins, I'm sure. So, and so Judith, you know, you're, you're part of that, that legacy. And that's, I think that's at least one like formal moment in the art world where you are, you're a pioneer, but there's also, you know, and by the way, I should name the artists who comprise those four. We've been talking about them. Frank Romero, Carlos Almaraz, Beto de la Rocha, and Magu Lujan. Thank you, Gilbert Magu Lujan. Absolutely. And Judith Hernandez, of course, adding to that group. But so Judith, maybe I don't know if it's too early to ask this question. But looking ahead, Judith, you have a lot of exciting things coming up. I mean, we just covered the MoMA group show that you're in, which is incredible. But you have some other things going on. There's other things going on in New York as well, right?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I have. Actually, for the first time in my life, I have a gallery representation anywhere.
SPEAKER_04:Who's that
SPEAKER_03:beginning you? She's an amazing young woman. Her name is Monica King. And her gallery has now become a different animal because of COVID. It's called Monica King Projects. And we're going to be planning something like a very adult form of the pop-up, you know, May in New York, Los Angeles, hopefully. We're still planning that. Hopefully, maybe next year, we'll do that. But in the meantime, what I really concern myself with is where I'm going next in the work that I do. I finally decided to, because it's always been like the 800-pound gorilla in my historical plans for the content of my work, and that's been the whole idea of colonization and the impact of colonization. It's something that young historians have actually pushed me in that direction. My daughter, Charlene, the things that I've been reading, it is such an important topic. And I think I never really wanted to kind of go there because it is so paradoxical. It is so savage. A 10th of the world's population disappeared after the conquest of the Western Hemisphere. I mean, it was that big. It's the biggest slaughter of human beings that has ever happened in human history. And that needs attention. I feel it needs attention. So the fact that the piece behind me is the first piece in the colonization series, I imagine I'll be doing that for the rest of my life. It's such a big subject. But I still add to other series, ongoing series like Juarez. I also have a new piece that I'm still working on for Juarez. So I There's no end for me. There's no end of subject matter. This
SPEAKER_04:is good to hear. I mean, it looks like you're still doing incredible work. Do you have any other questions, Melissa?
SPEAKER_00:Speaking of the Juarez series, I'd like to hand this over to Todd and then I would end up for questioning about what he's going to share.
SPEAKER_05:Thank you, Melissa. So Cheech, from the very beginning when we were first talking about the creation of the Cheech with Cheech and sort of what does this look like and what does this center do and what are the values that are important to Cheech? And, you know, Cheech has been such a champion of Chicano art and so generous with the collection, ensuring that the work is seen by as many people as possible. You know, that's how the Cheech came to be was that the Cheech... Papel Chicano Dos came to RAM and blew us all out of the water in terms of just the community reaction that people were lined up around the block. And so that's how the Cheech got started. But we've always talked about continuing to add to the collection, to expand it, and then to continue to tour it. And so... as a surprise announcement, or we haven't actually announced this publicly yet, but we are very pleased that the very first acquisition for the Cheech Marin collection that we've added to is a piece by Judith Juarez Quinceanera. And we are very excited that we'll be adding this to the collection. And I'm also happy to report that we are two thirds of the way through the fundraising to acquire our second piece. And so we are very excited about continuing to bring Judith into the collection and to ensure that her work is part of that canon that she just created. And so thank you for sharing your work with us. We're very excited to have it be part of the collection.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you, everyone. I'm always amazed, you know, that when my work has found a home where it can be seen publicly It's certainly nice to have collectors feel that they want to live with some of your work. But art should be public, and I am so pleased that it has public venues, especially like Cheech, the Cheech, which is going to be a magnet for school kids, for scholars, for just the community. And the community in Southern California is immense for the kind of work that we'll be seeing there. You know, big applause for Cheech Madin.
SPEAKER_04:We are honored to have you in the collection, Judith.
SPEAKER_00:Your work is amazing and beautiful. Any other questions or comments from our panelists? Charlene? So
SPEAKER_02:I want to ask a question. Why the Juarez Quinceañera? I remember seeing it in the Miller Sheets Gallery. It was so powerful. It was in the middle of that one really long room. And, you know, I'm thinking about the seriousness of the subject matter. And I'm just, I want to hear what drew you to that piece.
SPEAKER_04:You know, what draws me to, and Todd, we both are at the same time together, what draws to any piece of the totality of the painting is of the drawing or the pastel or whatever you want to call it when you're standing in front of it. You know, and the more you know about art, the more you know about the construction and the inspiration of art, the greater it informs your initial reaction. You know, when you stand in front of a painting and go, wow, that wow is informed by a lot of years, like you say, of knowing a lot of stuff and putting them together. And that informs basically your natural reaction.
SPEAKER_05:My recollection of that exhibition was we spent a lot of time in the exhibition wandering around separately and together, but we all kept coming back to that piece, either by ourselves or together. It was just that powerful and drew us both in. And so when we started talking about who do we add first, what are we going to start collecting? And Judith was right at the top of the list. When we started looking at the available work, we both instantly said, oh, that's the one.
SPEAKER_00:When Cheech talks about collecting, he always says this, it has to haunt him. And if it haunts him when he's actually still there, you... And it did. It's haunted him for a while.
SPEAKER_04:Paintings do haunt me, and I think they should haunt everybody that sees them. As you
SPEAKER_06:described it before, I think one of the more powerful analogies that has stuck with me for years now is when you make a connection between Chicano art and jazz, and their true American, original American art forms or genres of art, That has stuck. And there's something, there's a lot to be said there. I think, you know, it's beyond like the handling of paint. I think it's that chile he talked about. It's something about... There is much more than just nuances and technique. It is the hope, isn't
SPEAKER_00:it? Do we
SPEAKER_04:have any other questions from
SPEAKER_00:the peanut gallery? We do. How did you decide to start your series on the murder of young women factory workers in Mexico, the Juarez series?
SPEAKER_03:I was living in Chicago, and I was, like most Americans, it's been going on since the adoption of NAFTA. of the International Trade Agreement between, you know, at the border of Mexico and the United States in 1994. And it was shortly after that, that these young women who were like sitting ducks going back and forth from there, you know, where they live to, you know, to their, or leaving rather from the factories were abducted and murdered, but it never hit the American newspapers. And I think it was on the internet. I ran into an article about it in 2007. That was the earliest piece that I did. And the series has continued since then because in 25 years, in nearly 30 years now, the murders have not ceased. Most international human rights organizations say it could be as many as 2,000 women, ranging from ages of seven to women in their 40s. It's a huge international crime that's being committed and the Mexican government seems to not have the ability to deal with it and to prosecute, to stop and to prosecute the crime. the perpetrators. So as long as that
SPEAKER_00:goes on, so will the series. We have another question from Alan Blevins. He's congratulating you, of course, on being, as we all congratulate you, with the MoMA's permanent collection. He has two questions, two parts. First, what was it like to find out that your work was going into MoMA's collection? And that's the first one. And then the second one, I'll ask after you finish that.
SPEAKER_03:What was it like? It was like winning the lottery. I couldn't believe it. I mean, I just, you know, when a museum of that, you know, of that quality, you know, wants to have your work there, it is, it's a validating kind of feeling. I'm, like any other artist, I'm still subject, you know, to those kinds of desires to have my work validated by institutions and human beings I respect. And so, yeah. It is real. It's not only, you know, a wonderful feeling, but it's a great honor to have a piece of
SPEAKER_00:my work there. The second question is he wants to know, can you talk about your university thesis, particularly your use of spray paint graffiti at a time when that was revolutionary and then how your early murals influenced your body of work?
SPEAKER_03:You know, I've always drawn from my, you know, ethnic background, you know, the physical, you know, places that I lived in. One of the things I've been writing about lately when I'm conceptualizing the idea of working on the colonization series is the fact that people of color in this country live in an alternative version of America. And it is one that mainstream Americans for the most part, not everyone, but white Americans simply don't understand what it's like to be to live in a black neighborhood, to live in a Chicano neighborhood, to live in a Chinese neighborhood, you're required to know everything about them in order to function in America, but they're required to know very little about you. And so I think that that's, you know, I want to tackle some of that in the work that I produce because it's a way of leveling not the playing field, that's such an overused term, but a level of knowledge that stands between us, I think that separates us from one another. And I think it's important for just human beings, or I rather, it's my feeling that a lot of what separates us can be overcome when there's knowledge. And so the more we know about each other, You know, my instinct says that some of these other things will fall away. And so at least that's my hope.
SPEAKER_00:This is a question for Cheech, for Judith and others to weigh in. Given the rise in interest in collecting Chicano art, what do you recommend for beginning collectors?
SPEAKER_03:Whatever they love. Don't buy it as an investment. That's the worst thing in the world that a collector can do. Buy what you love. You know what's another good reason? Because I know it's what you do to support young artists. where you see potential and you want to support that potential. That's a wonderful reason to buy.
SPEAKER_04:If you're going to buy art for your home, look around and look what your home looks like. Where were you going to put this piece that will make harmony in your house? And read as many books and go to the many museums that you can before you buy anything. So you'll be informed about what is good and what is at least appealing to you. But that's where you build your knowledge.
SPEAKER_00:And I think as a collector, a young collector, not even a young, established or emerging collector, whatever I am, I think it's something I learned from Cheech is you like what you like. One day I woke up and I looked at my walls and what I had on my walls were paintings of women that were strong and emerging. And people who know me think, oh, you wanted someone like yourself. I was like, no, I don't feel like a strong woman. These give me life. They give me confidence. And so I surrounded myself with things that I like. And I know Cheech, that's really a motivator for you. You like what you like and you feel it. And I think being that kind of emotional or in tune with your emotions when you're collecting is important And I also like what you said, Judith, about collecting young artists and supporting them as they go as well. And that's something I know I do personally. I know Cheech obviously has over the life of his career of collecting. There is one more question. It is to Judith asking, is your work inspired by a particular historic period or is it symbolic to more contemporary social justice issues?
SPEAKER_03:No, my work is about the things that have happened in my lifetime. You know, the past has already been litigated, I think, by many people. So what's the point? I mean, there are so many things that, you know, we need to talk about now that stand between us as people. I don't deal in the past. I deal in the present, which is, I think, I don't know, one of the reasons maybe I still think of myself as a teenager. You know, I'm like that kid who like, you know, like crashed the adult party. I never quite feel like I belong there when I'm with a bunch of adults. But I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_04:To maintain that childlike innocence or that, you know, wide eyed innocence is something you don't ever want to lose, especially as an artist. You know, you want to be flabbergasted by what you see. Wow.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. God, when you lose that kind of interest in life, I think that, you know, life is over.
SPEAKER_04:Because we're going to need each other going forward. I don't care where you come from or what color you are or what your economic, social situation is. We are all going to need each other going forward from this time forward. We're going to face a lot of things that we need each other for. all over the world.
SPEAKER_03:I look forward to going to your opening.
SPEAKER_04:It's going to be a spectacular thing. We invite you to come as many times as you want to this museum. It is a spectacular space. I mean, really spectacular that you're going to, every kid that comes in is going to have a birth of appreciation of art, just like I had when I went to museums when I was young. So we're overjoyed to have your work at our museum. Hopefully we'll collect a lot more in the times Thanks very much for being on the program today. We really appreciate your work. We want to put it in special places to be honored in the new museum so that everybody else will fall in love with the same thing that we did.
SPEAKER_00:Judith, thank you for joining us. Many thanks to our panelists, Eddie, Charlene, Todd, of course, Cheech. So check out Judith's work online at judithhernandez.com. For show notes, links, and artwork images mentioned in this program, visit causeconnect.net. We'll post them later this summer when the museum launches its new website at riversideartmuseum.org. To learn more about the Cheech, please visit thecheechcenter.org. This series is presented by Riverside Art Museum. It's made possible through the generous support of the Union Pacific Foundation. Thanks for tuning in. Bye. Okay, ciao.
SPEAKER_04:Well, thank you very much for joining us.
SPEAKER_00:You're just so fabulous, Judith. I really love you.
SPEAKER_03:I work. I'm a worker. That's what I do.
SPEAKER_00:Bye, everyone.
SPEAKER_04:Thanks, guys. See you in the museum.
UNKNOWN:......
SPEAKER_01:Bye. Bye. Bye.